A.D. Winans: The Mexico Interview

In 2007 A. D. Winans was one of two U.S. Poets honored at the Oaxaca, Mexico International Arts Festival  Below is an interview conducted with Mr. Winans.  Interviewer:  Daniel Eduardo De La Fuente Altamirano.

Danial Altamirano:
How would you describe the literary environment in the US?

A.D. Winans: I would describe the literary environment in the U.S. as vibrant and very much alive, but I can’t speak for the entire U.S.  I was born in San Francisco, California, and have lived here practically my entire life; therefore I only feel comfortable speaking about my own literary environment.

San Francisco has always been a Mecca for creativity, be it poetry, prose or the art world.  Many young people continue to be enthralled with the Beat poets and writers, but before the Beat Generation, there existed what was known as the San Francisco Renaissance, a designation for a range of poetic activity centered throughout the city.

The Poet Kenneth Rexroth is considered by many to be  the founding father of the renaissance.  Rexroth was a prominent second-generation modernist poet who corresponded with the likes of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams.
He held regular readings in his apartment located in the Fillmore District.   The poets and writers attending the meetings represented a wide range of writing styles, from the ballads of Helen Adams to the bawdy themes of poet and filmmaker James Broughton.  During the forties, Rexroth and Madeline Gleason befriended a group of younger Berkeley poets, which included Robert Duncan and Jack Spicer, who later became associated with the Beats.

In the fifties, the Beat Generation sprang-up with the core of the movement centered in New York’s Greenwich Village and San Francisco’s North Beach.

Allen Ginsberg came to San Francisco around this time, and soon found his way to Rexroth’s pad, as did Philip Whalen and other Beat poets.  Later Rexroth arranged a reading at the Six Gallery where Ginsberg read his now famous HOWL poem.
Gary Snyder, Philip Whalen. Michael Mc Clure, and Philip Lamanita (surreal poet) were also on the bill.

The Beats openly challenged and defied the established order of the day.  They were among the first to fictionalize their lives to readers worldwide, who thrived on their real life experiences.
By the late fifties, they had cemented their role in the new American Counterculture, representing a large contingency of youths around the world.  The most important thing Kerouac, Ginserg and Cassady did was to make rebellious youths around the world aware there were others out there who felt the same way they felt.

The single most important event that served to gain the Beats notoriety was when the U.S. Customs seized the shipment of Ginsberg’s HOWL, declaring it obscene.  Customs later dropped the charge and allowed the book into the U.S., but an overzealous San Francisco Police Department arrested Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Shig Muro (the manager of City Lights) and charged them with selling obscene literature.  Judge Clayton Horn later ruled that if a book has “The slightest redeeming social importance, it is protected under the First and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S. and California Constructions and therefore can not be declared obscene.”  This legal precedent allowed Henry Miller’s Tropic of Cancer to be published by Grove Press.

Today the Beats have by and large died off, with only Ferlinghetti, Mc Clure, Di Prima, Kyger, Snyder, and David Meltzer remaining in the San Francisco Bay Area, but their influence remains, their spirit carried by post-Beat poets, far to numerous to list here.

DA:  Is today’s American literature characterized by any determining trend?

ADW:  American Literature since the beginning of the 21st Century is exceptionally diverse, with rapidly growing multicultural influences.

The biggest and fastest-growing minority group is the Latino population, which is now more than 40 million strong.  The Asian population, although stabilized, also makes up a sizable number of the over all population.   New voices continue to emerge within the Native American, African American, Asian American, and Hispanic American communities. Bi-lingual is a popular theme among American authors, reflecting both the alienation and the strong cultural identify that comes with being a nonnative English speaker living in the U.S.   Gender issues continue to remain popular in 21st Century American Literature, and Gay and Lesbian authors continue to publish and make their concerns known within their particular communities.

American writers as a group continue to respond to the important issues of the country and the world at large, while creating unique worlds within their own communities.  America’s diverse literary voices reflect the unique characteristics of its land, its people, and culture.  Just as Latino writers do in their native lands.

DA: Horace Engdahl, Nobel Prize Secretary, said on the eve of declaring Le Clézio winner of the 2008 Nobel Prize in Literature, that the US were too insular and ignorant a country to compete against Europe for the world’s main literary prize. “Europe is still the center of the literary world,” he said, “not the United States. “The U.S. is too isolated, too insular. They don’t translate enough and don’t really participate in the big dialogue of literature. That ignorance is restraining.” What is your opinion about this statement?

ADW:  I think his statement is both arrogant and misguided.   There is just as much junk literature cluttering the shelves of Europe as there is here in the U.S.  Perhaps Engdahl forgets William Faulkner and Ernest Hemingway were also awarded a Nobel Literature Prize, the very prize Mr. Engdahl references in his statement.

Faulkner said, “I believe that man will not merely endure, he will prevail.  He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures, has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit, capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance.  The poet’s, the writer’s duty, is to write about these things.  It is a privilege to help man endure by lifting his head, by reminding him of courage and honor and hope and pride and compassion and pity.  The poet’s voice need not merely be the record of man; it can be one of the props to help him endure and prevail.”

Could a European writer have said this any better?   But more importantly, poetry is not, and should not, be about competing.  Poetry comes from the heart and soul of the poet, and poets should not be in competition with each other, let alone nations competing with each other.

Mr. Engdahl says the U.S. is “too insular, too isolated, “ a country.  He fails to realize poetry does not originate from the core of any one country, but from the poet himself, regardless of what country he resides in.  Most poets are by their very nature Outsiders, some even Outlaws.

He is perhaps right that not enough translations are being done in the U.S., but this is slowly changing.  PEN (of which I am a member) encourages and rewards translations, and its writers have actively participated in the “dialogue of literature.”  However, I would respectfully point out no translator (no matter how good he or she is) can fully catch the beauty of a poem written in the native tongue of the poet.  I recently purchased The Collected Poems of Octavio Paz.  Each poem comes with a bilingual translation in English and is accompanied by the original works in Spanish.  The poems were an absolute delight to read, but I don’t think any translator, no matter how good, can ever capture the sound, the true tongue and fluid language that Paz intended in his original Spanish.  As for the “big dialogue of literature,” I leave this up to others to comment on.

DA: You are close to the Beat Tradition. What is the legacy of its authors? How valid are Ginsberg, Kerouac or Burroughs’ writings today?  Have they been studied enough?

ADW:  I think the Beats if anything has been over studied.  As for the legacy of its authors, history will be the final judge. Kerouac will always be the Godfather of the Beat Generation and Ginsberg (a self-marketing genius) will be remembered, if for nothing more than his poem, Howl.   But for my money, Ginsberg’s Kaddish is the best poem he wrote.  However, I feel it is important to point out there were many Beat writers who were as good if not better than Ginsberg, but who never received the proper recognition.  One of these poets was Bob Kaufman, one of the original voices to come out of the Beat Generation.  Kaufman is rightfully considered to be one of the most influential black poets of his era, though his poetry transcends race identification.  Like many of the Beats he started out in New York and later migrated to San Francisco’s North Beach.  Other Beat poets not given the proper recognition they deserve include Jack Micheline and Ray Bremser.

Today critics and academics alike recognize the Beats as legitimate poets, writers and artists, but the legitimacy did not come without a cost.  Their success came with a price.  In later life, Ginsberg sold out to the establishment, and as a result his work suffered.  He applied for and received not one or two, but three NEA fellowship grants, and years before his death he sold his archives to Stanford University for one million dollars.  William Burroughs made commercials and had a small roll in a popular movie.  Today Ferlinghetti’s City Lights Bookstore can’t be distinguished from other commercial bookstores, and he is second only to Ginsberg in marketing himself, receiving thousands of dollars for readings.   It’s unfortunate that Beat historians and translators have by and large limited their study of the Beats to Ginsberg, Ferlinghetti, Corso, Di Prima, Snyder, Mc Clure and Burroughs, while largely ignoring other Beat poets who left their mark on the Beat Generation.  This extends to non-Beat poets who were an influence on the Beats; Kenneth Patchen and Kenneth Rexroth are an example of two excellent poets and writers who seem to have fallen out of favor with the literary critics.

You mentioned William Burroughs.  In my opinion his greatest contribution to literature came with the publication of later books such as Naked Lunch, which was banned in many places due to its sexual content and biting political satire.  The book brought with it a new writing style, with Burroughs presenting numerous characters and personalities within the course of the book, shifting from one to the next without any warning.  With his approach, his writing patterns also changed.  Not just the dialogue, but also the narrating and thought patterns of the characters.  Burroughs spliced in what he called “routines,” small skits of humorous anecdotes.  Rather than the standard practice of progressing from beginning to the end as the book evolves, the chapters were presented in random order.  He ignored the standard rules of the day, and manipulated the language to suit his purposes.

Burroughs said, “You can cut into Naked Lunch at any point in the book, meaning it doesn’t matter whether you read it from the beginning to end, end to beginning, or in any order at all.”

The most radical change in his writing took place in 1959, when he began to employ what is known as “cutups,” the process of cutting up pages and rearranging them to form new combinations of word and image.  A page, for example, might be cut into quarters, and then the top rights would be paired with the bottom left, and the top left with the bottom right.  The composite text is then read or typed to form the new text.  There is little doubt Burroughs played an important role in the evolution of modern writing as well as other artistic mediums.    His style broke through previous literary standards and barriers and made it possible for other writers to openly experiment with different writing styles.

DA: Speaking about your personal work, what moves you to write? Who do you consider as your main influences and why?

ADW: My most immediate influences were writers and not poets.  Writers like Hemingway, Steinbeck, Camus, and F. Scott Fitzgerald.  My early poetry influences were William Carlos Williams, Carl Sandburg, T.S. Eliot, and Ezra Pound.  It was not until I returned from the military (Panama) in 1958 that I discovered the Beats.  Early Beat influences were Ferlinghetti’s Coney Island Of the Mind, followed by the works of Ginsberg, Corso, Jack Spicer, Richard Brautigan, Bob Kaufman,  and Jack Micheline.

But I have never said I was a poet.  I would be hard pressed to tell you what a poet is.  I find poetry wherever I go.  I have no national sense of poetry.  I write because I have too.  I write to appease the demons inside my head, voices that demand to be released, but there are times too when I write for the pure pleasure of it.
It seems like today everyone calls himself a poet.  The Internet is flooded with some of the worst poems imaginable.  You can’t simply call yourself a poet and be one.  I sense there exists a large number of poets out there who write poetry because they want to be called a poet.  They want recognition and crave awards and court favors, when in reality the real poet struggles to just survive and make a living.  I will never write to become part of the literary mafia or the cliques that exist in San Francisco and beyond.

A good percentage of my poems are about the dispossessed:  hookers, drug addicts, alcoholics, and the like.  But I am also a political poet, having opposed the Vietnam War and the unlawful invasion of Iraq by the criminal Bush administration.  When I saw that young naked and crying girl running down the village road in Vietnam, after it was napalm bombed, well that was something I had to write about.  I witness the police brutally of cops beating a man on the street, that’s another poem in waiting.  I write what I feel, but also what I see.  So you can say social injustice and tragedies move me to write, but then so does a sweating black musician blowing his horn in a jazz club, or the women I have loved in my life.  It’s all writing material.  They don’t teach subject matter like this in the classroom.

I’m not sure when I discovered the power of the written word, or when I first realized its revolutionary power.  Politically speaking I was inspired by Folk musicians like Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger, and later on by Bob Dylan.  But I don’t confine myself to any one writing style.  My short chapbook, 13 Jazz Poems is lyrical in nature, and my book Crazy John Poems is written in a narrative style.   I like to keep experimenting with language.  I don’t want to be labeled under any one particular category.

At my reading at the University in Oaxaca one of the students raised his hand and said he didn’t understand poetry.  This is one of the problems I have with poetry. Too many poets write for other poets.  They don’t write in a language the common man and woman understands.  They don’t write abut what goes on in the daily lives of the average American. The Language Poets search for the perfect line, but there is no gut feeling in those lines.  You can arrange lines in a near perfect order, and play around with metaphors and similes, but what does it mean to the average person in the street. That’s not the kind of poetry I write.  I’m not interested in the cleaver use of words that lie lifeless on the page.

DA:   What are your favorite topics, your main literary interests?

ADW:  My main topic is the human condition.  The laying down of the words on paper as I see, feel and live them.  So the human condition is my main interest.  I’m pretty much a recluse when it comes to the San Francisco Literary Scene.  I don’t go to cafes, or carry a notebook to write down my every thought. I don’t go to weekly bar meetings at Spec’s Bar, in North Beach, where a small group of poets meet and talk the night away.  I’d rather have a beer at Gino and Carlo’s bar and talk life with a secretary or a longshoreman.

My main interest today is exploring how to take my poems and arrange them side-by-side with photographs I have taken over the course of my life, since I am also an amateur photographer.  I’m interested in art films and art galleries.   I am interested in people.

DA: How would you describe your own path, your personal poetry?

ADW:  I have walked many paths in my life. I have tried to walk the walk, as well as talk the talk.  I’ve been a poet, a writer, a supporter of the arts, as well as having worked in Education, at the Office of Civil Rights, investigating discrimination against minorities, women and the disabled.   I have reached my seventies and I’m still learning and nowhere near to seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

As for my personal poetry, even though I like to consider myself a “People’s Poet,” I refuse to be pigeonholed. I have experimented in other forms and styles from lyrical to haiku and humor.  In baseball terms, I see myself as a fastball and curve ball pitcher, who sometimes crosses the batter up with a knuckle ball or a change-up.  I like to keep them guessing.

DA: What is the present situation of American authors vis-à-vis Latin America and the rest of the world?

ADW:  I am not sure how to respond to this question.  I think American writers and Latin American writers have much in common, as both culture of writers share a common ground in responding to the important issues of their country and the world at large.  American writers, Latin American writers, and writers across the globe reflect diverse literary voices reflecting the unique characteristics of their land, people and culture.  There is much we can learn from each other.

As for my own familiarity with Latin American Poets and Writers, I am limited by the fact I am not bi-lingual.  Like most American poets, I discovered Lorca, early on.  There’s no doubt he is one of the truly great Spanish writers of the 20th Century.
In his short life, he produced a great body of work.  His tragic death at the hands of Franco’s fascist henchmen is also what drew my attention to him.  Octavio Paz left behind a beautiful web of words of things seen and unseen.  He was a true master of mixing in elements of surrealism with the grit and bone of natural objects I recall his saying, “Wouldn’t it be better to turn life into poetry rather than to make poetry from life?”

I discovered Jorge Luis Borges rather late in life, which I regret, because I understand he is considered by many to be the foremost contemporary Spanish-American writer, and only now am I acquainting myself with Carlos Fuentes, a marvelous writer, dealing with the themes of Mexican identify and history.
And who cannot identify with Cesar Vallejo, if for no other reason than his identifying himself with the sufferings of the underprivileged, which is a subject dear to my heart.

As I said earlier, I think American and Latino writers share a common ground in that they both write about important issues of their respective counties, and both reflect diverse literary voices that reflect the unique characteristics of their land, people and culture.   We both have the opportunity to enrich our lives through the eyes and words of the other.

DA: Finally, your country faces a very severe economic crisis. What can a poet say when his country stands at such a difficult juncture?

ADW: This is not an easy question to answer.  It’s up to each individual poet and writer to determine his or her response to these difficult times we find ourselves in.  In my opinion a poet must say what needs to be said, without any thought or consideration as to the consequences.

We have war crime criminals who served in the Bush Administration who condoned and set policy allowing the torture of prisoners.  Our Constitution has been whittled away, little by little, and the average person on the street does not seem overly concerned.  The Bush Administration used FEAR as its weapon and the people were all too willing to give away ordinary freedoms for the promise of a false security.  The Republicans even today continue to use fear in an attempt to regain power.

Poets need to speak out against these and other abuses of power.  They need to join workers on the front lines; those brave enough to take their beliefs to the streets; protesting against the injustices perpetuated against the working class.  Poets need to do more than just write a poem, and read it to an audience, and take satisfaction in the applause.  They need to participate, and not just preach to the quire.

There is no easy solution to the economic crisis we find ourselves in. We all know Wall Street and greedy bankers are largely responsible for putting us in the position we find ourselves in today. The poet and average citizen does not have a real opportunity to put an end to this greed other than to hold the politicians accountable and vote them out of office.  If the U.S. were to sink into a depression like the one we experienced in the thirties, it may actually be good for the country.  We have become a commodity-obsessed nation.  We live beyond our means.  We put everything on credit.  We pass a homeless person on the street, and we don’t look him in the eye, let alone drop a coin in his cup.  The Government isn’t the answer; it is only a player in the game.  We need to examine our very heart and soul.

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7 Responses to “A.D. Winans: The Mexico Interview”

  1. Excellent interview!

    Al, I really like what you say here. Am in perfect agreement, as well as the comments about the wanna be ‘poets’.

    ‘Too many poets write for other poets. They don’t write in a language the common man and woman understands. They don’t write abut what goes on in the daily lives of the average American. The Language Poets search for the perfect line, but there is no gut feeling in those lines.’

  2. Al Winans is the last of the poets of the Beat Generation who has total, unvarnished integrity. As he suggests for other poets, he writes “what needs to be said, without
    any thought or consideration as to the consequences.” He is the supreme individual
    poet, untouched by Cacademia and the Bureaucrats who would turn poets into
    sausage meats in Dunderback’s machine. Some of his poems touch me in the deep heart’s core, all of his poems are unburnished, flawless gems and stones of the human condition. One can argue with him about some of his ideas, but no one can be unimpressed or unmoved by the sheer, solid fineness of his poetry. I feel privileged to be one of his many publishers.

  3. ave jeanne Says:

    AD is like a brisk wind, he brings up all substances that we just walk by, or simply take for granted.

  4. I was into photography early on and I see a great number of my poems as word snapshots I record in the lens of my eyes translate to the written page.

    Stan. Many thanks many times over for your friendship and support for my work.

    Pris and Ave….thanks for your comments and friendship over the years.

  5. Important interview! I recalled Pound’s lines somewhere..”the thought of what America would be like…” I haven’t read it since 1950 but the gist of it was if all poets had money for support, they could change the world. The poor mad genuis could not foresee the reality of such a simple proposition. The Poetry Foundation uses his face and gives a hundred grand to poets of tenure and position while others are found in the other truly American position, hunkered on the street with a blanket over their heads. What’s the difference? One part of Pound’s dream was realized, but money stolen from taxpayers and given to THE ARTS propagated talentless frauds, each with cute conceit who mastered the money-propaganda-process and passed the money to other mediocre talented friends who call themselves poets and writers. You will never see such an important interview in the NY Times Sunday arts section so all the Northeast liberal elites could take a sip of latte and open the page to learn something other than their money processed art garbage that speaks only to themselves, like the Nobel committee implied. Why? “Quality” dear children. Those who have given their cultural identities, gender, ass, soul, etc, to own that word, have found a way to win any ARTS/Money argument and endow their friends. I flip on the TV and there is by gosh, by golly, Bill Moyers hosting his homogenized quality poets and assorted millionaire beatniks who played the game. I listen…but they are reading prose! Prose with line breaks, descriptive didactic prose (academic workshop poetry) from the great experiment that gave poets money. Don’t get me wrong, I like money and want mine, but haven’t gotten any to write my poetry nor even supliment my paltry S.S. check that doesn’t quite cover my upkeep. I’m no politician either, so I don’t expect money to write my poety. That reminds me, like Winans, I need no longer call myself a poet. Charles Plymell

  6. You got it down right, Charles. Money goes to those who don’t need or deserve it. I remember Randolph, the pathetic head of the Lit Program, telling me “need” is not a factor in our decision making. So Ginsberg gets three NEA fellowships and poets like you and Micheline get the shaft. If org’s could be merged, the NEA and the Poetry Foundation could get married, so much alike as they are. I wonder if Ms. Lily knew how her money would be administered.

  7. Annie Menebroker Says:

    Nice, Winans. I like especially that someone who writes poetry isn’t in competition with the world of other poetry writers, doesn’t get up in the morning with a briefcase, go up an elevator , dressed in a blue suit, to a swanky suite that overlooks some fantastic view of the ocean or city, and then writes vast and profound words. xo

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